The Fans Problem With Madonna

[LikeAMelody 728]

If Madonna is afraid of looking old are twenty somethings afraid of looking plain or tired when they put make up on to go out? Are teenagers afraid of being teenagers if they use something to clear up or cover up their acne? I like the original color of my hair, some like gray and that's great for them.

[Turuncan 737]

As I said, I don't think that's what she means with ageism. She wants to live and do whatever she wants at any age. That's her message, so she's not contradicting herself.

 

And I think she definitely likes making fun music, she always has. She has a great sense of humor and Bitch I'm Madonna is her type of thing. She likes to have fun and being silly.

 

And she definitely got a lot of shit for Hung Up. But yeah, it was a better song, it was a great melody plain and simple, so pop fans ate it up, not so much with some of her recent "fun" singles.

She is contradicting herself on grounds of being afraid of looking old and as a nostalgia act. This means "looking/being old is a bad thing." And this is what ageism actually is. I really do not think the woman trying to relate to the teens is her real self. This is who she thinks she SHOULD be.

 

Making fun music is one thing, making bad music for the sake of making fun music is a completely different thing. Considering what a huge joke that 'Bitch' song is, yeah she has a great sense of humor. The only thing is, there is a difference between being funny and being ridiculous.

 

For 'Hung Up' and that era in general, I remember only positive things about the sound and her image. There will always be haters, and "Confessions" got her share as well, but they were not even one hundredth of the shit she received for the last two albums.

[Fighter 28,798]

She is contradicting herself on grounds of being afraid of looking old and a nostalgia act. This means "looking/being old is a bad thing." And this is what ageism actually is. I really do not think the woman trying to relate to the teens is her real self. This is who she thinks she SHOULD be.

 

Making fun music is one thing, making bad music for the sake of making fun music is a completely different thing. Considering what a huge joke that 'Bitch' song is, yeah she has a great sense of humor. The only thing is, there is a difference between being funny and being ridiculous.

 

For 'Hung Up' and that era in general, I remember only positive things about the sound and her image. There will always be haters, and "Confessions" got her share as well, but they were not even one hundredth of the shit she received for the last two albums.

 

I don't think it's ageist to not want to age or to look bad. I think it's just human. We all try to mitigate it. Our bodies, our choices. 

 

I don't think Bitch I'm Madonna is a bad song but that is subjective. You can think it's a bad song and that's fine. To me the fact that it's so ridiculous makes it fun/funny, and i'm pretty sure she's aware of it too. There's a big "ridiculous" component to a song like Vogue for instance, and she admitted to it at the time. She's 100% into that type of stuff. A lot of pop music haters think songs like that are just shit too, but I don't care about what they think.

 

Back in the Confessions era there was no social media like there is now, if you search stuff from the time (like blogs or forums) the same exact things were being said that are being said now. The same type of vitriol. She's always gotten it. Social media just made it easier, and her reacting to that fueled it tbh.

 

A lot of the Rebel Heart music was "adult music" in my view, not that it matters. I don't think music has age, you like what you like. Those are just preconceived notions. Why should she not make contemporary music? All I'd like is that she doesn't do the obvious stuff that everyone's doing with the same template cos she can do better. That's my only complaint. Pop music and its trends are not exclusively for teenagers or 20 year olds.

[Turuncan 737]

I don't think it's ageist to not want to age or to look bad. I think it's just human. We all try to mitigate it. Our bodies, our choices. 

 

I don't think Bitch I'm Madonna is a bad song but that is subjective. You can think it's a bad song and that's fine. To me the fact that it's so ridiculous makes it fun/funny, and i'm pretty sure she's aware of it too. There's a big "ridiculous" component to a song like Vogue for instance, and she admitted to it at the time. She's 100% into that type of stuff. A lot of pop music haters think songs like that are just shit too, but I don't care about what they think.

 

Back in the Confessions era there was no social media like there is now, if you search stuff from the time (like blogs or forums) the same exact things were being said that are being said now. The same type of vitriol. She's always gotten it. Social media just made it easier, and her reacting to that fueled it tbh.

 

A lot of the Rebel Heart music was "adult music" in my view, not that it matters. I don't think music has age, you like what you like. Those are just preconceived notions. Why should she not make contemporary music? All I'd like is that she doesn't do the obvious stuff that everyone's doing with the same template cos she can do better. That's my only complaint. Pop music and its trends are not exclusively for teenagers or 20 year olds.

 

We clearly disagree about what ageism is and who an ageist is, so I don't need to go any further from that point. I am behind my opinions. 

 

What's that think about 'Vogue'? I didn't hear that.

 

Again, haters always find a thing and "Confessions" era got its share, too. So did "Like a Prayer" and "Ray of Light". It's about who objective fans and listeners think, I believe. People may like or dislike 'Hung Up', but on the objective side it is a decent song with a quality production. 

 

It is not about contemporary music, as I stated before. All post-"Evita" stuff has been dance and electronic music oriented with the sound of the moment and some are liked and some disliked. It is more about the quality, I'd say.

[Fighter 28,798]

It is not about contemporary music, as I stated before. All post-"Evita" stuff has been dance and electronic music oriented with the sound of the moment and some are liked and some disliked.It is more about the quality, I'd say.

 

 

Yes, its about not following the obvious template. Confessions pre-faced the EDM craze of the late 2000s and hit that sweet spot that people love her for, intelligent yet fun pop music. Of the moment but timeless. People wanted more of that, instead she went the urban route which was on its way out with producers that had already peaked, same with MDNA. Rebel Heart wasn't as bad in this sense. A lot of people liked Bitch I'm Madonna, I feel like it has personality, I think its far more creative than Girl Gone Wild for instance, which is just a generic template of a song. 

[MadMark 117]

As I said on another thread before. Music is always subjective. There is no right or wrong. Look at Wikipedias entry for BIM. There are at least 5 well known music critics who gave that song a good review. So this will lead to nowhere here. It´s pointless. Nobody can win in such a "battle".

[Scottyx 8,777]

Her appeal to fans will always exist, but like it or not, Madonna to the mainstream is not seen/heard the same.  You ask the general population which Madonna songs they know, it is going to be her early catalogue talked about.   Many older artists are seen as nostolgic acts or treated as Vegas "flashbacks".  As for concerts, many people will go to concerts just for something to do, especially if it is in parts of countries where big names do not usually go.  I have friends who went to see her Rebel Heart tour who only went to hear the songs they knew and remembered Madonna for - nothing from Rebel Heart.

[Alibaba 1,518]

@@Alibaba

 

Her aging the way she wants to is her personal choice. We don't have to agree with her nor relate to it. But at least we can agree in that people should be able to do whatever they want at any age as long as they aren't hurting others which is her real anti-ageism message, we don't have to follow her path, but we can agree with her in principle.

 

And I'd say she does express things that relate to this time in her life, like nostalgia and her place in a changing world. I think those are relatable things. 

Hey Fighter - I agree that how she wants to age is her personal choice. I don't think I said anything to the contrary, but sorry if I was misconstrued. She is a force of nature and I do not disregard or disrespect the self-discipline and tenacity that she embodies. I admire it entirely. However, as social media has allowed us to see more of the human and less of the "superstar", I'm simply inclined not to be as interested in her lifestyle and what she represents. I honor her choices, and think her expanding family is admirable and adorable, and I hope it makes her very happy! However, that person is not the performer. I guess I fell in love with the performer, and so while I appreciate the sentiment of her desire to share videos of her kids horse riding or playing around in her apparent inner sanctum, aka her bathroom, it just isn't what I want. Add to that the fact that as I mature myself I am less inclined to follow trends, and have my own strong sense of self, I recognize that in lifelong fandom, on many levels the developing years are the ones that are fundamental to the fandom. It is therefore probably normal for me to feel a sense of alienation in approaching my current feelings about Madonna because we are so radically different at this point. But that doesn't negate a lifetime of memories and associations through today. I mean, I have my Rebel Heart story. I have my MDNA story. What was happening to me in my life was associative. Sorry if I'm getting too psychological...

 

I love what Madonna represents as a phenomenon and as an important global historic figure. She is larger than life. These are also rapidly changing times, and pop culture is very different compared to the commercial Zeitgeist Madonna enjoyed on and off for more than two decades. And yes, She is a huge concert draw, and her speeches and appearances can be mesmerizing. But she is also a legend now. Pop is youth-driven in the sense that it is marketed to the youth. That someone older still enjoys it is great! I love tons of new music too! When I was in my teens I would scan the back pages of Rolling Stone for chart positions and certifications, and I'd listen to chart countdowns on the radio or watch them via videos on MTV. I don't really seek out what's popular anymore, but I do seek things that are relatable and that I'm amazed or fascinated by!

 

So my love for Madonna will continue to thrive, but as with all relationships, if you are in it for the long haul, there are going to be lulls and growing pains. It isn't just one big love/fuckfest! Peace  to All! 

[kesiak 3,036]

As much as I agree with her on the ageism thing, I have to say that she is sometimes contradicting herself with her actions.

 

She says she is battling with ageism, but she is terribly afraid of looking old and desperately wants to be cool and hip with the kids, which only adds up to the problem. Being or looking old is not a bad thing, and a person claiming to be against ageism should not be ageist herself/himself. The criticism of not acting their age is not uttered against Tina Turner and Jane Fonda for example, and that's the only reason in my opinion.

 

For the music, I really don't think she likes making garbage such as "MDNA" or 'Bitch I'm Madonna', and this makes her look more desperate for staying young. It's not the sound, but the songs themselves. No one dragged her for 'Hung Up', because it was a masterpiece. She can do dance music as much as she wants, but she should feel what she sings. Madonna is not dumb, she knows what good music is and she knows 'Give Me All Your Luvin'' and that 'Bitch' shit are not really good songs. Besides, she is alienating her real fanbase as well.

 

I don't care about her actions or words, I still feel and enjoy her when I watch her interviews. As long as she makes good music, nothing she does will bore me.

 

How is it ageist to try and stay in shape, look one's best, cosmetic enhancements or not? Especially when you live in the public eye? I'd like to check with you when you're in your 50s and see how you're feeling about it then - will you let yourself go? Don't we all want to look best we can at any age? I'll be 40 in a few years - I swim, I get LED treatments done regularly, I use good skincare and I wouldn't rule out fillers/botox if I felt I needed it. Does that make me ageist too? For someone in Madonna's position, it's a lose-lose situation - when she has something done she's deemed "desperate". If she let herself go there would be close-ups of her crows' feet and saggy arms in magazines.

 

Fonda had plastic surgery done, which she readily admits to, and got a lot of flack for it too - for seemingly betraying her "feminist credentials". I saw Tina Turner in 2009 when she was just a few months shy of 70 and there were plenty of people who couldn't believe I'd pay money to see this "granny" in concert. That same year I saw Grace Jones - she was 60yo, wore a thong, high heels, was sexually suggestive and even hula-hooped through an extended version of "Slave To The Rhythm". I didn't think she was "desperate", "inappropriate" or "not acting her age". I thought it was amazingly refreshing to see a woman refusing to become what society expected of her at that stage in woman's life. 

 

In the past 100 years or so, human lifespan literally doubled and I think we, as a society, haven't entirely caught up with this idea that life doesn't end at 40 and that there's another half of life left to live and enjoy. So when we see people past their 50s refusing to be put out to pasture it makes us uneasy simply because it's a new phenomenon and we don't know exactly what to make of it. The ageing process has always been viewed as this arch - you grow, develop and then you peak at some point after which it all goes downhill. I firmly believe it's more of a staircase where you never stop growing, changing, developing, thinking, challenging - you just keep going "up". I think that's exactly what Madonna's doing and I applaud her for that. Or any woman, be it Fonda, Turner or Jones who makes up their own rules to play by.

[MadMark 117]

How is it ageist to try and stay in shape, look one's best, cosmetic enhancements or not? Especially when you live in the public eye? I'd like to check with you when you're in your 50s and see how you're feeling about it then - will you let yourself go? Don't we all want to look best we can at any age? I'll be 40 in a few years - I swim, I get LED treatments done regularly, I use good skincare and I wouldn't rule our fillers/botox if I felt I needed it. Does that make me ageist too? For someone in Madonna's position, it's a lose-lose situation - when she has something done she's deemed "desperate". If she let herself go there would be close-ups of her crows' feet and saggy arms in magazines.

 

Fonda had plastic surgery done, which she readily admits to, and got a lot of flack for it too - for seemingly betraying her "feminist credentials". I saw Tina Turner in 2009 when she was just a few months shy of 70 and there were plenty of people who couldn't believe I'd pay money to see this "granny" in concert. That same year I saw Grace Jones - she was 60yo, wore a thong, high heels, was sexually suggestive and even hula-hooped through an extended version of "Slave To The Rhythm". I didn't think she was "desperate", "inappropriate" or "not acting her age". I thought it was amazingly refreshing to see a woman refusing to become what society expected of her at that stage in woman's life. 

 

In the past 100 years or so, human lifespan literally doubled and I think we, as a society, haven't entirely caught up with this idea that life doesn't end at 40 and that there's another half of life left to live and enjoy. So when we see people past their 50s refusing to be put out to pasture it makes us uneasy simply because it's a new phenomenon and we don't know exactly what to make of it. The ageing process has always been viewed as this arch - you grow, develop and then you peak at some point after which it all goes downhill. I firmly believe it's more of a staircase where you never stop growing, changing, developing, thinking, challenging - you just keep going "up". I think that's exactly what Madonna's doing and I applaud her for that. Or any woman, be it Fonda, Turner or Jones who makes up their own rules to play by.

so true and you reminded me of this https://www.queerty.com/shirley-mansons-defense-of-madonna-against-ageist-mysogyniscitc-critics-still-holds-true-20150209

[Alfalfa_HampusFL 1,138]

Lol, been following her nearly since the beginning, and I have no problem with her in any way..I also do not see her "not acting her age"..who the hell is going to tell her how to act and what songs to write and perform just because she is older than 50? Personally I'll never act according to an age, I'll act according to who I am.. and I expect her to do the same.

[Turuncan 737]

How is it ageist to try and stay in shape, look one's best, cosmetic enhancements or not? Especially when you live in the public eye? I'd like to check with you when you're in your 50s and see how you're feeling about it then - will you let yourself go? Don't we all want to look best we can at any age? I'll be 40 in a few years - I swim, I get LED treatments done regularly, I use good skincare and I wouldn't rule out fillers/botox if I felt I needed it. Does that make me ageist too? For someone in Madonna's position, it's a lose-lose situation - when she has something done she's deemed "desperate". If she let herself go there would be close-ups of her crows' feet and saggy arms in magazines.

 

Fonda had plastic surgery done, which she readily admits to, and got a lot of flack for it too - for seemingly betraying her "feminist credentials". I saw Tina Turner in 2009 when she was just a few months shy of 70 and there were plenty of people who couldn't believe I'd pay money to see this "granny" in concert. That same year I saw Grace Jones - she was 60yo, wore a thong, high heels, was sexually suggestive and even hula-hooped through an extended version of "Slave To The Rhythm". I didn't think she was "desperate", "inappropriate" or "not acting her age". I thought it was amazingly refreshing to see a woman refusing to become what society expected of her at that stage in woman's life. 

 

In the past 100 years or so, human lifespan literally doubled and I think we, as a society, haven't entirely caught up with this idea that life doesn't end at 40 and that there's another half of life left to live and enjoy. So when we see people past their 50s refusing to be put out to pasture it makes us uneasy simply because it's a new phenomenon and we don't know exactly what to make of it. The ageing process has always been viewed as this arch - you grow, develop and then you peak at some point after which it all goes downhill. I firmly believe it's more of a staircase where you never stop growing, changing, developing, thinking, challenging - you just keep going "up". I think that's exactly what Madonna's doing and I applaud her for that. Or any woman, be it Fonda, Turner or Jones who makes up their own rules to play by.

 

I didn't say anything about trying to stay in shape, beautiful, good-looking, fit, having sexual drive, dressing provocatively etc. I talked about a general attitude. All those young boyfriends, teenage-style garbage music, exhibitionism, her general mannerisms, the way she uses social media, "Look how sexy I am!!" desperation, all those "collaborations" with whoever the most popular act is etc. etc. are signs of fear of looking old, and very telling. I personally do not care about how she acts; she is a free and independent human being. I am not critical or even judgmental towards her unless she shits out another "MDNA". But when you act in a certain way, it is natural to be seen and judged that way, which is why I understand some people are critical to her personality, whether I agree or disagree with them. And you can't battle against ageism when you are afraid of "seeming old" yourself. It's rather psychological than physical.

 

Put it that way: Kylie is pushing 50. Mariah is pushing 50. Jennifer Lopez is pushing 50. All still semi-nude. Cher collaborated with Christina Aguilera and Lady Gaga while pushing 70 and she wore the same dress she wore 30-something years ago. Tina sang with Beyoncé. Pet Shop Boys covered Coldplay. Many more examples can be given. But none of them has suffered ageism the way Madonna complains about suffering. Ever thought why?

 

Tina, Jane, and other women we are talking about are not acting/did not act the way Madonna acts. And no one tells them to "act their age" the way Madonna is told to. That's all I say, so please stop trying to prove they have cosmetic surgery as well. Good for them. That's not even the case.

[kesiak 3,036]

I didn't say anything about trying to stay in shape, beautiful, good-looking, fit, having sexual drive, dressing provocatively etc. I talked about a general attitude. All those young boyfriends, teenage-style garbage music, exhibitionism, her general mannerisms, the way she uses social media, "Look how sexy I am!!" desperation, all those "collaborations" with whoever the most popular act is etc. etc. are signs of fear of looking old, and very telling. I personally do not care about how she acts; she is a free and independent human being. I am not critical or even judgmental towards her unless she shits out another "MDNA". But when you act in a certain way, it is natural to be seen and judged that way, which is why I understand some people are critical to her personality, whether I agree or disagree with them. And you can't battle against ageism when you are afraid of "seeming old" yourself. It's rather psychological than physical.

 

Put it that way: Kylie is pushing 50. Mariah is pushing 50. Jennifer Lopez is pushing 50. All still semi-nude. Cher collaborated with Christina Aguilera and Lady Gaga while pushing 70 and she wore the same dress she wore 30-something years ago. Tina sang with Beyoncé. Pet Shop Boys covered Coldplay. Many more examples can be given. But none of them has suffered ageism the way Madonna complains about suffering. Ever thought why?

 

Tina, Jane, and other women we are talking about are not acting/did not act the way Madonna acts. And no one tells them to "act their age" the way Madonna is told to. That's all I say, so please stop trying to prove they have cosmetic surgery as well. Good for them. That's not even the case.

 

I think you're missing the point. All these female artists have suffered ageism, they just may not have been as vocal about it. Tina stopped selling records in US by early 90s, hardly anyone bought recent albums by Kylie, Mariah and J. Lo and that's partly because radio doesn't play songs by women over a certain age. One way to go around it is to collaborate with younger artists who appeal to the demographic that radio stations cater to (it's no coincidence Madonna's last two Top 10 singles in US were collaborations). I don't think it's a sign of "fear of looking old" but a sad reality and pragmatic way to sell records. Another reason Tina and Cher aren't criticised as harshly is because they stopped trying to compete with the current music scene a long time ago - they accepted their iconic status without bothering too much about staying current. And there's nothing wrong with that but that's clearly not Madonna's ambition. Madonna also attracts more criticism simply because anything she does results in a disproportionate amount of attention - whether it's adoption or bum-flashing. She's also been much more political in her career which is always polarising.

 

As for music, I guess it partly also comes down to personal preferences - there's actually a lot I like on her last 3 studio albums. I'm not going to sit and pretend they are Ray Of Light type masterpieces but there's enough good stuff there for me to enjoy. 

 

And why would it bother anyone that someone they've never met is dating men half their age? Who cares? Whose business is it anyway? Why should it be something worthy of scorn? Same for being an exhibitionist - she's always been one, what's wrong with that? 

[Turuncan 737]

I think you're missing the point. All these female artists have suffered ageism, they just may not have been as vocal about it. Tina stopped selling records in US by early 90s, hardly anyone bought recent albums by Kylie, Mariah and J. Lo and that's partly because radio doesn't play songs by women over a certain age. One way to go around it is to collaborate with younger artists who appeal to the demographic that radio stations cater to (it's no coincidence Madonna's last two Top 10 singles in US were collaborations). I don't think it's a sign of "fear of looking old" but a sad reality and pragmatic way to sell records. Another reason Tina and Cher aren't criticised as harshly is because they stopped trying to compete with the current music scene a long time ago - they accepted their iconic status without bothering too much about staying current. And there's nothing wrong with that but that's clearly not Madonna's ambition. Madonna also attracts more criticism simply because anything she does results in a disproportionate amount of attention - whether it's adoption or bum-flashing. She's also been much more political in her career which is always polarising.

 

As for music, I guess it partly also comes down to personal preferences - there's actually a lot I like on her last 3 studio albums. I'm not going to sit and pretend they are Ray Of Light type masterpieces but there's enough good stuff there for me to enjoy. 

 

And why would it bother anyone that someone they've never met is dating men half their age? Who cares? Whose business is it anyway? Why should it be something worthy of scorn? Same for being an exhibitionist - she's always been one, what's wrong with that?

 

I don't think I am the one missing the point. I didn't say these female artists didn't suffer ageism or sexism in terms of sales or airplay. I just say they were not criticized for "not acting their age" the way (or the extent) Madonna suffers, and there are reasons to it. Pointing these out does not necessarily mean agreeing with them I guess.

[MadMark 117]

As for music, I guess it partly also comes down to personal preferences - there's actually a lot I like on her last 3 studio albums. I'm not going to sit and pretend they are Ray Of Light type masterpieces but there's enough good stuff there for me to enjoy. 

 

 

That is what I meant with my statement before ("battle" that nobody can win). He forgets/ignores the fact that the majority of the music critics reviewed MDNA positive (generally favorable reviews). Also it won some awards (Golden Globe for Masterpiece, Billboard Music Award for best dance album). Just open the Wikipedia entry for the album and you can see it.

So for him it was garbage, shit, etc. but that doesn´t make it a fact.

[Guest]

@@kesiak is right though. "Tina and Cher aren't criticised as harshly is because they stopped trying to compete with the current music scene a long time ago - they accepted their iconic status without bothering too much about staying current. And there's nothing wrong with that but that's clearly not Madonna's ambition. Madonna also attracts more criticism simply because anything she does results in a disproportionate amount of attention - whether it's adoption or bum-flashing. She's also been much more political in her career which is always polarizing."

 

Madonna is indeed a much more polarizing artist. She strikes a lot of nerves with people. So she is much more of a target because she doesn't succumb to normal society's views of being a woman especially as she grows older.  Even some of her fans take issue with her "not acting her age", but I always have to wonder and ask, "Who made up this rule you have to act and dress a certain way based on age?"  Our society expects people to act and dress a certain way.  They made up that stupid rule.

 

The fact is; she's always surrounded herself with youth even before she was famous. We've heard the stories how she would hang out with younger kids in the neighborhood when in NYC.  She even dated guys younger than her then. 

 

In the end, who is she hurting?  It's not like she's hurting financially.  And she's still a huge success. Surely, she's not as a commercial success as she once was, but again, she is hardly suffering from it.  She's always been a savvy business woman. A lot of the issues some fans have with her, are due to her savvy business decisions. Very much like why REBEL HEART TOUR DVD is taking so long to be released.  I believe it has to do with financial/legal obligations. She isn't stupid. She knows it won't sell well, so she's milking the streaming and broadcasting rights.

 

I will say this though, I do think Madonna gets far more respect than she has gotten in the past.  I think as she grows older and remains highly successful, people grow to appreciate that.  I can see her having a few more resurgences in her career where the general public will be quite supportive. And if she's willing to keep at it into her 90's, I can see her being seen as "beloved" in the same way Betty White is now. And the thing with Betty White, she wasn't always very liked when she was younger.  Granted she never was as huge as Madonna in her prime, but the point is Madonna is always going to polarizing because she's very outspoken and doesn't give a shit.  I think that will only help her as she continues her career as she grows older. 

 

Madonna will always align herself with younger people. She always has since day one.  The fact is; the music world is catered to the youth.  Madonna has always been that type of act who always wants to stay fresh and current.  She might not be as successful at it as she used to be, but a lot of that is because society has hang ups on people who age, especially women.  And fans have to stop blaming her and her management for not being as successful when we have proof older acts do not get the same exposure and success (no matter how great they are) as younger acts.  Certainly, there will always be acts like Madonna who will keep kicking at that door.   Much like the many older famous acts before her.  The RollingStones, U2, Bruce Springsteen, Tina Turner and Elton John all have enjoyed success as they got older, but they suffered the same fate as Madonna has when it comes to mainstream success and exposure on radio. 

[NowRadiate 3,331]

can i just say i don't like that this thread is called "fans PROBLEM". just a thought. i don't think her fans are the problem or that they have a problem. they have opinions, that's all.

 

and here's mine:

I think madonna is feeding ageist sentiments as much as she is fighting them.

 

1 the way she seems to present herself (half-naked, as any other female artist nowadays. time for the guys to drop the pants!)

2 the way any picture seemingly must be photoshopped nowadays (people know her age and increasingly feel tired being pressured to optimize themselves)

3 who she seems to surround herself with (younger lovers, none of our business though)

4 the artistic choices she (or her camp) seems to be making (DJ-penned, superficial products instead of musician-penned products with a little more substance; which all can still remain very commercial)

5 the poor marketing choices her team seems to be making (not worthy of a pop queen status?) 

 

all of the above  can indeed be seen as if she is chasing after her own youth. or they can be viewed to leave room for improvement.

note, i said, CAN.

 

BUT: these are all just fractions of her as a pop artist trying to reach the best sales possible.

so we are talking about Madonna, the pop product. the queen of pop, to be exact. who some feel shouldn't need certain antics. and that is a valid opinion, even if not shared by all.

 

I totally understand where @@Turuncan is coming from.

I do understand how people would think Madonna is "not acting her age", although i wouldn't agree with all of it.

I do understand and agree that she shouldn't need to use flavor-of-the-month DJs and that the quality of her musical work has been lacking with the last three albums.

I don't agree anybody should judge who she dates. As long as they're legal, everybody should shut up. Love doesn't know age or status, if you're a romantic.

 

the general public seems to view her as someone who desperately tries to come across younger than she is, in her appearance and her art.

the fact that she is dating younger people doesn't help it.

but that's exactly the game she chose not to play.

she just doesn't buy into it. she does what she wants.

 

she doesn't think about whether anything she does or doesn't do is age-appropriate or not. which is charming. that's her rebellion.

but it's that same approach and behavior that is a manifesto against ageism as much as it feeds ageist standpoints.

 

if fans who don't agree with her artistic choices and the way she has presented herself as a pop product in recent years are considered a "problem", then i don't want anything to do with people who think they are the "real fans".

sorry. had to say it.

[Turuncan 737]

can i just say i don't like that this thread is called "fans PROBLEM". just a thought. i don't think her fans are the problem or that they have a problem. they have opinions, that's all.

 

and here's mine:

I think madonna is feeding ageist sentiments as much as she is fighting them.

 

1 the way she seems to present herself (half-naked, as any other female artist nowadays. time for the guys to drop the pants!)

2 the way any picture seemingly must be photoshopped nowadays (people know her age and increasingly feel tired being pressured to optimize themselves)

3 who she seems to surround herself with (younger lovers, none of our business though)

4 the artistic choices she (or her camp) seems to be making (DJ-penned, superficial products instead of musician-penned products with a little more substance; which all can still remain very commercial)

5 the poor marketing choices her team seems to be making (not worthy of a pop queen status?) 

 

all of the above  can indeed be seen as if she is chasing after her own youth. or they can be viewed to leave room for improvement.

note, i said, CAN.

 

BUT: these are all just fractions of her as a pop artist trying to reach the best sales possible.

so we are talking about Madonna, the pop product. the queen of pop, to be exact. who some feel shouldn't need certain antics. and that is a valid opinion, even if not shared by all.

 

I totally understand where @@Turuncan is coming from.

I do understand how people would think Madonna is "not acting her age", although i wouldn't agree with all of it.

I do understand and agree that she shouldn't need to use flavor-of-the-month DJs.

I don't agree anybody should judge who she dates. As long as they're legal, everybody should shut up. Love doesn't know age or status, if you're a romantic.

 

the general public seems to view her as someone who desperately tries to come across younger than she is, in her appearance and her art.

the fact that she is dating younger people doesn't help it.

but that's exactly the game she chose not to play.

she just doesn't buy into it. she does what she wants.

 

she doesn't think about whether anything she does or doesn't do is age-appropriate or not. which is charming. that's her rebellion.

but it's that same approach and behavior that is a manifesto against ageism as much as it feeds ageist standpoints.

 

if fans who don't agree with her artistic choices and the way she has presented herself as a pop product in recent years are considered a "problem", then i don't want anything to do with people who think they are the "real fans".

sorry. had to say it.

Word by word. After all it's not that hard to understand.

[MadMark 117]

 

but that's exactly the game she chose not to play.

she just doesn't buy into it. she does what she wants.

 

she doesn't think about whether anything she does or doesn't do is age-appropriate or not. which is charming. that's her rebellion.

 

so true and I really hope that the general public as well as some fans will acknowledge this rebellion in the future

[Guest]

She already gets far more appreciation for her "rebellion" than she used to.  Unfortunately, she won't win the battle against ageism especially in the music business.  But like everything she's done in the past, she will be recognized for paving the way for so many women. 

 

I will say that it does irk me that males don't get half the nonsense thrown at them as she does for doing very similar things.

[NowRadiate 3,331]

that males don't get half the nonsense thrown at them as she does for doing very similar things.

 

maybe it's because i am male that i can't come up with examples from the top of my head. but do you have any examples?

i mean, is a guy who dates much younger women really considered more acceptable, i wonder. i think the guys just don't comment on anything and go their own way.

the more madonna speaks about it, the less sovereign she comes across, i think.

and she hasn't talked about these things lately, which is a good move in my opinion.

she should do what she wants, alright. but pointing out how things are so ageist or sexist makes her seem weaker, i think.

 

as for the music, i'll stand by what i said in many posts before.

aim for better quality. no matter which style or trend. no throwaway shit that's so non-queen of pop.

[MadMark 117]

 

 

I will say that it does irk me that males don't get half the nonsense thrown at them as she does for doing very similar things.

Remember when Lionel Ritchie posed bare chested with a young girl at a pool two years ago ? He got praised for it almost everywhere.

[Guest]

I don't have a problem with her acting any age. Cause regardless your age Female or male you should be allowed to do anything you want to do. The only thing and i'm sure alot of people feel the same. I wish there was no such a thing as photo shop i miss the days of celebs getting there picture taken instead of having photoshop to remove all the imperfections.  I think some imperfections  are truly beautiful IMO

 

I tried to look up when photoshop was created i believe it says 1988. But if someone knows please let me know. i know in the 60s therre was no photshop. I didn't realize it went back to 1988

Yeah, a lot of people would be surprised that a form of photoshop has always been used for decades.  Though, it was more about perfecting the lighting, etc., to make one look better.  

 

The thing is; if Madonna wasn't photoshopped today, people would be all over her regarding her imperfections. They already do so with the photoshopping, so it's a no brainer to see that she would be hassled by it either way.  Not everyone sees it the way some of us do, who look past the imperfections or simply appreciate it.

 

And let's be real, Madonna certainly wouldn't look as good as she does without taking care of herself and the few facial procedures she's had done.  Her lifestyle has given her the opportunity to look as great as she does.  If not, well we can only look at her siblings in how she would look today. Though, I do think the way she has taken care of her body and diet has helped, but again, I do think she would look far older and less perfect without the procedures. ;)

[NowRadiate 3,331]

Remember when Lionel Ritchie posed bare chested with a young girl at a pool two years ago ? He got praised for it almost everywhere.

 

missed that.

...the scandal was him being bare-chested? (shrugs)

or with a young girl?

 

sorry but i don't think it's completely comparable.

if he was prancing around in justin bieber outfits trying to look like a youngster...i think i would agree.

[NowRadiate 3,331]

I don't have a problem with her acting any age. Cause regardless your age Female or male you should be allowed to do anything you want to do. I wish people would get over her age.  The only thing and i'm sure alot of people feel the same. I wish there was no such a thing as photo shop i miss the days of celebs getting there picture taken instead of having photoshop to remove all the imperfections.  I think some imperfections  are truly beautiful IMO I'm in my 40s and i hate aging. I think she's beautiful (madonna) when some of her untouched photos we're making there rounds. She's truly beautiful without it

 

I tried to look up when photoshop was created i believe it says 1988. But if someone knows please let me know. i know in the 60s therre was no photshop. I didn't realize it went back to 1988

 

i agree, some imperfections are truly beautiful.

1988? not sure it was broadly used then. i think its heavy use started in the mid-90s, the software, that is.