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The Fans Problem With Madonna


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thanks for explaining photo shop.  i truly didn't know its been here for a long time.  I understand if they take a scratch off a photo and fix that. But my idea of any celeb photo would be completely no photo  shop. 

 

To me she looks so beautiful in this photo she looks younger to me without makeup.  I don't think this is photo shopped. or is it?

 

this has a soft-focus filter on. probably also some color enhancement. it's a preset filter...makes lines disappear.

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no throwaway shit

And I stand by what I said before too  :)

This is all subjective. Nobody can be right or wrong regarding this matter. Although I understand what you mean and I agree to a certain extend. Aiming for better quality is always a good thing to do.

I just have a problem with the type of words you use to explain your opinion :wink:

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missed that.

...the scandal was him being bare-chested? (shrugs)

or with a young girl?

 

sorry but i don't think it's completely comparable.

if he was prancing around in justin bieber outfits trying to look like a youngster...i think i would agree.

This is the picture he made I was talking about.

If Madonna would done the same, she would get mocked and ridiculed for it, as usual. Remember her pictures with Jesus, that were quite similar ?

But he got praised for it by the press and public (the "ageless" Lionel Richie, etc).

But this was just one example that popped in my mind.

http://www.bilder-upload.eu/show.php?file=de37a7-1497737396.jpg

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This is the picture he made I was talking about.

If Madonna would done the same, she would get mocked and ridiculed for it, as usual. Remember her pictures with Jesus, that were quite similar ?

But he got praised for it by the press and public (the "ageless" Lionel Richie, etc).

But this was just one example that popped in my mind.

http://www.bilder-upload.eu/show.php?file=de37a7-1497737396.jpg

 

ok thanks for sharing. haven't seen this before. i didn't catch it cause a such a stir (but he is also not as famous as madonna, is he).

i agree, madonna would've been criticized.

but the whole "the older partner is the potent, famous and the wealthy one" while the young partner is "the beautiful meat that is bought" is not flattering for anyone, male or female...

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And I stand by what I said before too  :)

This is all subjective. Nobody can be right or wrong regarding this matter. Although I understand what you mean and I agree to a certain extend. Aiming for better quality is always a good thing to do.

I just have a problem with the type of words you use to explain your opinion :wink:

 

sorry, didn't mean to hurt your feelings. everyone has their tastes.

in general, i think a lot of popular music has been of throwaway quality for quite a while.

look at how artists are really allowed to develop. not very much, i would say. or only a few are.

 

and i will never get over "bitch, i'm madonna" haha. i admit.

but you go and enjoy what you enjoy. i still like you.  lol

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She already gets far more appreciation for her "rebellion" than she used to. Unfortunately, she won't win the battle against ageism especially in the music business. But like everything she's done in the past, she will be recognized for paving the way for so many women.

 

I will say that it does irk me that males don't get half the nonsense thrown at them as she does for doing very similar things.

You know what, I have always wondered if it had been Michael Jackson kissing Justin Timberlake and Usher in VMA 2003 and if that would have been as iconic as it has been for Madonna-Britney-Christina. They would have been bashed and called out "fags" etc. So when it comes to the acceptance of homosexuality and many other things, in fact men are also socially disadvantaged when compared to women.
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she should do what she wants, alright. but pointing out how things are so ageist or sexist makes her seem weaker, i think.

 

Isn't that what strength is about though? Voicing your opinion no matter how unpopular it might be in order to affect change? 

 

As for Photoshop - sure, there are instances when it's overused but retouching is as old as photography itself. Those amazing old Hollywood shots of Dietrich, Garbo, Crawford etc for example, were all retouched to within an inch of their lives (though it was done manually in those days usually directly on the negative). Photography is an art form, it can be used to portray reality but it can also be used to create a different realm, which is especially true when it comes to fashion photography. Take MDNA promo images for example - neither the photographer nor Madonna's team thought for a second they were realistic in any way, they're not blind, but that wasn't the point. Whether you like them or not is a different story (I personally don't).

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I think you're missing the point. All these female artists have suffered ageism, they just may not have been as vocal about it. Tina stopped selling records in US by early 90s, hardly anyone bought recent albums by Kylie, Mariah and J. Lo and that's partly because radio doesn't play songs by women over a certain age. One way to go around it is to collaborate with younger artists who appeal to the demographic that radio stations cater to (it's no coincidence Madonna's last two Top 10 singles in US were collaborations). I don't think it's a sign of "fear of looking old" but a sad reality and pragmatic way to sell records. Another reason Tina and Cher aren't criticised as harshly is because they stopped trying to compete with the current music scene a long time ago - they accepted their iconic status without bothering too much about staying current. And there's nothing wrong with that but that's clearly not Madonna's ambition. Madonna also attracts more criticism simply because anything she does results in a disproportionate amount of attention - whether it's adoption or bum-flashing. She's also been much more political in her career which is always polarising.

 

As for music, I guess it partly also comes down to personal preferences - there's actually a lot I like on her last 3 studio albums. I'm not going to sit and pretend they are Ray Of Light type masterpieces but there's enough good stuff there for me to enjoy. 

 

And why would it bother anyone that someone they've never met is dating men half their age? Who cares? Whose business is it anyway? Why should it be something worthy of scorn? Same for being an exhibitionist - she's always been one, what's wrong with that? 

As this is a debate, and initially about fandom, I hope you won't find this response too argumentative, but your points about other pop stars aren't really comparable or accurate. In the case of Kylie, Mariah and Jennifer Lopez, there is a fundamental issue of quality. They are simply not in the same culturally influential league as Madonna at all, and even if two of them had a long peak, they were never creative and cultural juggernauts. 

 

As for Cher and Tina Turner...Yikes. Cher has chased trends consistently throughout her career. She is a new media revisionist, essentially due to her never-ending farewell tour that has established her as having been at her peak for fifty years. Utter bullshit! No one respected Cher musically. She was a JOKE! While she has a good number of career-defining songs, she has also made some of the most uninspired music I've ever heard over the course of her career! Dozens of terrible, forgotten albums! She hates dance music, but since Believe she has essentially made the same album over and over again, just with more modern bells and whistles. Tina was headed down the same path by the end of her recording career. Wasn't When the Heartache is Over written and produced by the Believe people? Thank God she stopped that eurotrash direction when she did. Her entire legacy would have become a joke! Cher has also been infinitely more outspoken politically than Madonna for decades, so that point is also sort of irrelevant, and she was best known post-If I Could Turn Back Time for her butt exposure. She also was the crux of many a joke regarding her bagel boy toy in the 80s, and she was only in her early forties. 

 

This was about fandom. Not ageism. Are fans ageist? Perhaps some are. I don't think any of this is ageist. It's simply called reality. Radio 1 not playing her new music is not about ageism. It is about the very same corporate machine that gave her her wealth and fame wanting to maximize profits! They want to sell, and be influential so that advertisers continue paying big bucks. You think Madonna wasn't ageist towards older recording artists in her own youth?! Lol. Think again! She was a discriminating bitch on every level! That punk irreverence is what made her youth all the more beguiling! Pop targets youth. Not people over 35. I mean, I get it...Nowadays everyone has arrested development. 30 year-olds think they are 16. Responsibility isn't cool, and people want to stay cool and carefree for as long as possible. But eventually everyone has to wake up, or you simply become stagnant.

 

That Madonna wants to challenge conventions is admirable and wonderful. However, it doesn't mean that if you liked her best in the first twenty years of her career and don't find her latter day message all that interesting that you are rejecting her through ageism. It may just be that you find her immature and irritatingly unevolved in ways, particularly due to her hyper-privilege. That is also the prerogative of a fan to express and feel. I find the idea that Madonna succumbed to horrible electronic music trends since 2012 to be a disappointment because in my very unimportant opinion, I find that contradicts her philosophical desire to shun convention! Much of what she does is in fact VERY conventional. In fact, I'd even go as far as to say that what Madonna has defined as unconventional is simply her desire to abuse power as much as men have traditionally. That is her benchmark. Then she uses feminism to justify it, but feminism isn't about equality in a tit for tat manner. It isn't that I don't find it all fascinating, and worthy of discussion, but that discussion must include all aspects, including those that are critical of her evolution. The discourse is alive, as is she. I am sure the conversation will continue to evolve as she does. And she will because ageism or no ageism, she is still getting older. As is her audience. 

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Sorry @@Alibaba, but when a fan or anyone in general says, "she needs to act her age" or criticize her for working with younger acts, etc., that is "Ageism".  And yes, there are a number of fans who think this way. Ageism is quite "real". This is what some of us are referring to.  Sure, there are fans who criticize her for other reasons, but this isn't what anyone here was referring to.  Ageism is definitely an issue for Madonna now. Certainly, Madonna isn't the only one who suffers from it.  Most women between 40 and 50 get booted out the door in the entertainment industry. In the music business it does extend to men as well, but not as bad as for women. Top 40 radio caters to talent under 30 for the most part.  I'm not saying that artists over 30 don't get played, but as one gets closer to 40 and over 40, they are less played.  And once you hit 50, you're pretty much history.  And just because Cher got a huge hit in her 50's doesn't mean ageism doesn't exist.  In fact, Madonna was even able to score two top 10 hits in her 50's.  But the latter "GMAYL" wasn't a traditional big hit.  We all know how that got to top 10.  As for "4 Minutes", we also know Justin Timberlake and Timberland played a huge role in making that successful. 

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Sorry @@Alibaba, but when a fan or anyone in general says, "she needs to act her age" or criticize her for working with younger acts, etc., that is "Ageism".  And yes, there are a number of fans who think this way. Ageism is quite "real". This is what some of us are referring to.  Sure, there are fans who criticize her for other reasons, but this isn't what anyone here was referring to.  Ageism is definitely an issue for Madonna now. Certainly, not only Madonna suffers from it.  Most women between 40 and 50 get booted out the door in the entertainment industry. In the music business it does extend to men as well, but not as bad as for women. Top 40 radio caters to talent under 30 for the most part.  I'm not saying that artists over 30 don't get played, but as one gets closer to 40 and over 40, they are less played.  And once you hit 50, you're pretty much history.  And just because Cher got a huge hit in her 50's doesn't mean ageism doesn't exist.  In fact, Madonna was even able to score two top 10 hits in her 50's.  But the latter "GMAYL" wasn't a traditional big hit.  We all know how that got to top 10.  As for "4 Minutes", we also know Justin Timberlake and Timberland played a huge role in making that successful. 

I understand everything you are saying. I don't really see how it relates to my points, but I'll think about it some more. You see, I don't measure Madonna's success or appeal by her chart positions or her potential for a modern hit. Certainly not anymore! Rihanna has more hits than she does at this point, but I can guarantee most people don't know even ten of them. Madonna has songs that never even charted that are classics. It's all relative. As I said, the pop industry sells a product meant for the youth market. I don't know why anyone would think the charts should be filled with a bunch of artists who have been around for thirty years! I mean, everyone deserves a chance, and each generation has its own thing! You can still go out and discover other things. It's not like I wasn't going to like Joni Mitchell because she was wasn't going top ten!

 

 

Madonna is in a league of her own, pun intended. Her failure is only to be measured by her own standards. Therefore, I don't see ageism in it at all, and I hope she puts that to bed fast because there's nothing worse than someone playing victim when they are so privileged. 

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I understand everything you are saying. I don't really see how it relates to my points, but I'll think about it some more. You see, I don't measure Madonna's success or appeal by her chart positions or her potential for a modern hit. Certainly not anymore! Rihanna has more hits than she does at this point, but I can guarantee most people don't know even ten of them. Madonna has songs that never even charted that are classics. It's all relative. As I said, the pop industry sells a product meant for the youth market. I don't know why anyone would think the charts should be filled with a bunch of artists who have been around for thirty years! I mean, everyone deserves a chance, and each generation has its own thing! You can still go out and discover other things. It's not like I wasn't going to like Joni Mitchell because she was wasn't going top ten!

 

 

Madonna is in a league of her own, pun intended. Her failure is only to be measured by her own standards. Therefore, I don't see ageism in it at all, and I hope she puts that to bed fast because there's nothing worse than someone playing victim when they are so privileged. 

My reply was simply in response to your claim that Madonna doesn't suffer from Ageism.  And now you claim she's playing "victim"?? LOL!  That's just ridiculous and unrealistic.  The fact is, radio doesn't play her.  TOP 40 radio doesn't play artists over 50.  They usually cater to 30 and under.  Madonna standards haven't changed.  In fact, she even tried to play their game by teaming up with younger acts to get played.  If you look back in pop history, this is what happens to most pop artists.  They get shoved aside and then sometimes if they team up with the right younger artist, they may gain another hit song.  She did that with Justin Timberlake.  There have been plenty of her solo songs that were worthy of radio, but they just refuse to play her or at least as much as the under 30 artists.  

 

Madonna hasn't failed. She's still going strong. She might not be selling albums like she used to, but she's still doing quite well for herself, and still kicking ass with her tours.

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In the case of Kylie, Mariah and Jennifer Lopez, there is a fundamental issue of quality. They are simply not in the same culturally influential league as Madonna at all, and even if two of them had a long peak, they were never creative and cultural juggernauts.

 

Actually they were, and still are. In some cases, they are even more creative and influential than Madonna. It's just that some of their areas of influence and interest are different than Madonna's.
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Isn't that what strength is about though? Voicing your opinion no matter how unpopular it might be in order to affect change? 

 

As for Photoshop - sure, there are instances when it's overused but retouching is as old as photography itself. Those amazing old Hollywood shots of Dietrich, Garbo, Crawford etc for example, were all retouched to within an inch of their lives (though it was done manually in those days usually directly on the negative). Photography is an art form, it can be used to portray reality but it can also be used to create a different realm, which is especially true when it comes to fashion photography. Take MDNA promo images for example - neither the photographer nor Madonna's team thought for a second they were realistic in any way, they're not blind, but that wasn't the point. Whether you like them or not is a different story (I personally don't).

 

yes, it can be strong to voice your opinion no matter how unpopular it might be. but this is not the case here, i think. if she just did what she wants and not try to justify it by saying "oh, but look what men do", then she would just come across more independent. who cares if people think something is ageist. she should just follow through. her complaints are humanly understandable but weaken her appearance in my opinion. or i should say, this was the case. i have not heard or seen her talk about it too much anymore lately. which is a good thing.

you cannot fight all ageism by words. actions. (or non-action in some cases).

 

you're right about photo editing. but as means were limited in the day, they opted for overall ew paintings if they couldn't come up with the perfect photo. some photoshop overdoes it. and it's a pity. it creates exaggerated expectations about how someone should look.

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thanks for the site. a lot of important info there.

not to sound sexist, but a lot of the subjects mentioned there are not exclusive to women. i feel like the whole gender discussion carries a fair amount of non-equality also aimed at the other direction. it seems not to be about making male and females equal but to have females overpower males, perhaps? just an impression with some of the topics, not all.

also, a lot of the examples on site don't really apply to madonna?

 

the examples i was looking for was for men dating younger women and being praised for it. i don't think all of them really are praised for it. they are often times looked at like pimps. and the girl is looked at like a prostitute, which i wouldn't agree with but this view exists. and it's vice versa too.

i think a large age difference between relationship partners is generally not very accepted. women get more shit for it but it's because it has not been so common in the past. things look different now. people will get and have gotten used to it a fair amount, i would say.

 

i tend to agree with what @@Alibaba said about general equality:

"In fact, I'd even go as far as to say that what Madonna has defined as unconventional is simply her desire to abuse power as much as men have traditionally. That is her benchmark. Then she uses feminism to justify it, but feminism isn't about equality in a tit for tat manner."

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ok thanks for sharing. haven't seen this before. i didn't catch it cause a such a stir (but he is also not as famous as madonna, is he).

i agree, madonna would've been criticized.

you´re welcome. It didn´t cause any stir at all cause all just complimented him in the press and comments.

 

and i will never get over "bitch, i'm madonna" haha. i admit.

but you go and enjoy what you enjoy. i still like you.  lol

you don´t have to get over it at all  :smile: 

Hate it with passion as much as you want, it´s your personal taste and it´s your right to do so but only because you (and others) say it´s shit, garbage, etc. that doesn´t make it a fact but I repeat myself here (Nobody can win in this "battle"/discussion) and we shouldn´t go any further.

And of course I still like you too :kissy:

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 I find the idea that Madonna succumbed to horrible electronic music trends since 2012 to be a disappointment because in my very unimportant opinion, I find that contradicts her philosophical desire to shun convention! Much of what she does is in fact VERY conventional. In fact, I'd even go as far as to say that what Madonna has defined as unconventional is simply her desire to abuse power as much as men have traditionally. That is her benchmark. Then she uses feminism to justify it, but feminism isn't about equality in a tit for tat manner. It isn't that I don't find it all fascinating, and worthy of discussion, but that discussion must include all aspects, including those that are critical of her evolution.

If the discussion must include all aspects then Madonna must be at the table herself too. Everyone can discuss and have opinions (opinions are like assholes, everybody has one :wink: ). But if you want a true discussion that is meaningful and have a reasonable result Madonna herself must be present too, to defend herself and to explain her own personal point of view because it is about herself and her own personal actions.

Otherwise in the end we are all just speculating and expressing our (as you said very unimportant) personal opinions.

But I understand it of course, that is what forums are all about but it will always be quite unfair to claim something so fundamental ("she was a discriminating bitch on every level") and to judge about a person without hearing the person involved (and I don´t mean interviews or something). I know that this is highly unrealistic, such an open discussion with Madonna herself of course will never happen unfortunately. Plus I highly doubt some would have the guts to say some of the things here written directly into her face.

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If the discussion must include all aspects then Madonna must be at the table herself too. Everyone can discuss and have opinions (opinions are like assholes, everybody has one :wink: ). But if you want a true discussion that is meaningful and have a reasonable result Madonna herself must be present too, to defend herself and to explain her own personal point of view because it is about herself and her own personal actions.

Otherwise in the end we are all just speculating and expressing our (as you said very unimportant) personal opinions.

But I understand it of course, that is what forums are all about but it will always be quite unfair to claim something so fundamental ("she was a discriminating bitch on every level") and to judge about a person without hearing the person involved (and I don´t mean interviews or something). I know that this is highly unrealistic, such an open discussion with Madonna herself of course will never happen unfortunately. Plus I highly doubt some would have the guts to say some of the things here written directly into her face.

Yes. If Madonna wants to join the discussion, she's welcome! However, I think she's busy buying further into her European aristocracy fantasy in Portugal while preparing to make a film no one will ever see.

 

We are fans. We get to discuss Madonna until the cows come home! Madonna has told the world she doesn't give a shit what anyone thinks of her for over thirty years, and while this is a complete lie, it has served her well. Therefore, I feel perfectly entitled to rip her a new asshole on the things I find problematic in my own appreciation of her as a fan. You honestly think Madonna's rise to fame wasn't a result of her being a discriminating bitch?!!! Who have you been paying attention to all these years? She was a CUNT. It's well documented. And if you need an actual Madonna-endorsed product to remind you, watch Truth or Dare again. She is just awful! It was fun at the time. I was sixteen and so I though it was very cool, but by the time I was 32, I was horrified by much of her behavior. While my opinions may be personal and unique to me, they are also based on thirty-three years of observation. Your point about Madonna being required at the table in order for the discussion to be accurate is certainly interesting, but do you think anyone discussing relativity is invalidated because Einstein isn't around to speak up?! It's a great topic to debate. I'm glad I got to participate here, so thanks! 

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For me, it has nothing to do with her age, but more the quality of her work as the years progress. The last few albums show that she hasn't really put in the effort that she once did. Her songs have become less Madonna, and more about her trendy collaborators.... and very little of it is memorable.

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Yes. If Madonna wants to join the discussion, she's welcome! However, I think she's busy buying further into her European aristocracy fantasy in Portugal while preparing to make a film no one will ever see.

 

We are fans. We get to discuss Madonna until the cows come home! Madonna has told the world she doesn't give a shit what anyone thinks of her for over thirty years, and while this is a complete lie, it has served her well. Therefore, I feel perfectly entitled to rip her a new asshole on the things I find problematic in my own appreciation of her as a fan. You honestly think Madonna's rise to fame wasn't a result of her being a discriminating bitch?!!! Who have you been paying attention to all these years? She was a CUNT. It's well documented. And if you need an actual Madonna-endorsed product to remind you, watch Truth or Dare again. She is just awful! It was fun at the time. I was sixteen and so I though it was very cool, but by the time I was 32, I was horrified by much of her behavior. While my opinions may be personal and unique to me, they are also based on thirty-three years of observation. Your point about Madonna being required at the table in order for the discussion to be accurate is certainly interesting, but do you think anyone discussing relativity is invalidated because Einstein isn't around to speak up?! It's a great topic to debate. I'm glad I got to participate here, so thanks! 

And I have to thank you for explaining yourself too well :thumbsup: very interesting :wink:

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Your point about Madonna being required at the table in order for the discussion to be accurate is certainly interesting, but do you think anyone discussing relativity is invalidated because Einstein isn't around to speak up?! It's a great topic to debate. I'm glad I got to participate here, so thanks!

 

@@Alibaba that was absolutely hilarious!!

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At first sight it is funny but he missed the point because discussing relativity has nothing to do with discussing about Einstein as a person, judging his personality  :wink: :lol:

I was just being facetious. Although I did recently read that some uppity bitch claimed Einstein embraced Christianity upon his death bed and rejected his theories. It's a total falsehood, but it still establishes how potent other people's opinions can be after we die.

 

Madonna holds the key if legacy is important to her. I don't expect her to see her career that way as she is just living her life, but she is an icon. She has had such an enormous influence. Until a few years ago, one could honestly say we are just living in Madonna's world...Not so much today. That is essentially her own doing. Perhaps this was intentional. Still, it sucks as a fan to watch her fade slightly due to her determination to be contemporary in style. You'd think she'd know better. 

 

I guess the bottom line I am finding in all the dialog is that everyone seems to be blaming the radio for being ageist, when it is actually the public. They are the ones who reject collectively. 

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